Navigating Trauma: Supporting Families and Building Resilience with Dr. Daniel Roberts and Dr. Michelle Sherman

What if you could find a way to support your loved ones through the toughest times while also taking care of yourself? Join us for an insightful conversation with Dr. Daniel Roberts and clinical psychologist Dr. Michelle Sherman as we uncover the crucial support systems for families touched by trauma and mental illness. Michelle's collaboration with her mother in creating resources for teenagers grappling with deployment-related issues is spotlighted, offering a unique perspective on the challenges military families face. This episode sheds light on the significance of trauma-informed educational approaches.

Together, we navigate the complex landscape of trauma's impact on family dynamics, particularly for veterans grappling with PTSD. Michelle shares her firsthand experiences from the VA hospital, emphasizing the emotional and physical hurdles these families encounter. From setting boundaries to transitioning from combat behaviors, the discussion is rich with insights on maintaining familial bonds amidst adversity. The need for effective PTSD treatments and strategies for communicating with children about these challenges is highlighted, ensuring listeners walk away with practical tools for everyday life.

Dive deep into the empowering message behind Michelle Sherman’s book, "Loving Someone with Mental Illness or History of Trauma," aimed at reaching those who need support but can't attend traditional groups. Through a compassionate narrative, Michelle provides evidence-based strategies from therapies like cognitive behavioral therapy, offering listeners validation and encouragement.

Go to Michelle's website (www.SeedsofHopeBooks.com) and order these two books:

Loving Someone with a Mental Illness or History of Trauma: Skills, Hope, and Strength for Your Journey (2025, Johns Hopkins University Press)

I'm Not Alone: A Teen’s Guide to Living with a Parent Who Has a Mental Illness or History of Trauma (2024, Seeds of Hope Books)

Get the free Veteran's Guide to Talking to Kids about PTSD that Michelle mentioned during the interview: https://www.mirecc.va.go

Chapters

• 0:00 Supporting Families Living With Trauma
• 14:48 Navigating Trauma and Building Support
• 18:31 Navigating Trauma During the Holidays
• 33:38 Empowering Readers With Trauma Resources

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:34

Hi everybody. This is Dr Dani Roberts. I'm president and CEO of Moral Injury Support Network for Service Women, Incorporated. Of course, you know me if you've been listening to these podcasts, and today we have a very special guest with us and I'll let her introduce herself.

Speaker 2: 0:51

All right, Thank you. Good afternoon. I'm so happy to be here. I appreciate the opportunity. My name is Michelle Sherman. I'm a clinical psychologist. I'm currently in Minnesota and this is home for me.

Speaker 2: 1:05

I was away for a while with training and things, but, yeah, I've dedicated my career to supporting families in which a loved one has experienced trauma or has mental illness. I worked in the VA Veterans Affairs System for about 18 years and developed education curriculum for families who love someone living with mental illness or PTSD, Did a fair bit of specialty work in sexual trauma, developing some group therapy for at that time it was primarily women, although of course both women and men experience sexual trauma. I did some specialized work in that area. Then, after leaving the VA, I came back up to Minnesota. That was in Oklahoma. I came back to Minnesota and I've been with the medical school here in Minneapolis for a while, teaching in the Department of Family Medicine, and then, since COVID, I've returned to doing a more of a private practice, with, again, a specialty in supporting families living with mental illness or PTSD career, though I've had a real focus on working with adults who've experienced a number of different life experiences, but with a special passion for working with military personnel and their families.

Speaker 1: 2:26

Okay, great, michelle. Thank you very much.

Speaker 2: 2:28

Now give us your credentials real quick, if you would I have a PhD in clinical psychology from the University of Missouri, a PhD in clinical psychology from the University of Missouri, columbia in 1997. Got a master's degree there as well. My bachelor's degree from the University of Notre Dame in Indiana. Other credentials, since you're asking, is I am board certified in couple and family psychology. I think there are about 4% of psychologists are board certified, so it's not very common in my field. I am also a fellow of the American Psychological Association and I am currently the editor of the American Psychological Association's Division 43, which is couple and family psychology, or journal, which is titled Couple and Family Psychology Research and Practice. So I'm the editor-in-chief of that.

Speaker 1: 3:25

So that's all my credentials.

Speaker 2: 3:27

I was a professor a full professor in the University of Minnesota and University of Oklahoma, and I've had the good fortune to do a lot of research. I've gotten lots of grants and I've had the opportunity to do a lot of teaching. I love teaching and research and providing clinical care, so I've had a real blessed path, honestly, and I do a lot of different things as a psychologist.

Speaker 1: 3:50

Thanks. I appreciate that that's a little self-serving for me, because I just want to let our guests know how much of a heavy hitter you are and how blessed I feel, and our organization feels, to have someone like you on our podcast, who's just done so much as such an expert in so many things. You've dedicated so many years to study and practice and research, and that's really important that the folks know that, that what you're going to share with us comes from really decades of work and that's really important. So, and you work with your mother, right? Tell us a little bit about that relationship and how you all work together to serve.

Speaker 2: 4:36

Thanks for asking.

Speaker 2: 4:37

So about 20 years ago we were on a family vacation up here in Minnesota and I said to my mom hey, do you want to write a book?

Speaker 2: 4:47

And she said yes, and so in the early 2000s we actually wrote three books, and they're all for teenagers One's for teens whose parent has experienced trauma, one's for teens whose parent has experienced trauma, one's for teens whose parent has a mental illness and one for teens whose parent deployed In that time it was primarily Iraq, afghanistan. We're really fortunate in that the National Guard picked up the trauma book and sent out boxes to all National Guard units across the country. So we're really humbled that there's just a real big gap in resources for teenagers. Then, more of late and perhaps we'll talk more about this, we're getting two books coming out here this fall and winter. One of them is the second edition, a book for teens, and the other one is for adults. So my mom is a teacher, a mental health advocate, and we have collaborated for at least 20 years in really joyful, blessed ways of being able to work together and creating resources that we hope will help families, and I can tell you funny stories if you want to hear any funny stories.

Speaker 2: 5:48

Yeah, yeah, absolutely we have some funny things, but yeah, she is my collaborator. All of this is in my non-work life, my personal life.

Speaker 1: 5:58

Yeah, awesome. So, and you know that's an important uh, the teenage you mentioned teenagers. For a short period of time, a very short period of time, I did some teaching at middle school. I actually taught eighth grade math, um and it's. It was in a small school, um, in a poor part of the community, uh, the County I would say, and a lot of like a really high rate of adverse childhood experiences in those students and I myself had some pretty significant aces. So part of it was, I guess one benefit of teaching a little bit was realizing that I had some unhealed things that I needed to get after.

Speaker 1: 6:57

I had some unhealed things that I needed to get after, but also being able to see how much home life can interfere with learning and that just having a student, giving them a bunch of rules to follow and then constantly getting after them for not following those rules, doesn't equate to education. It doesn't equate to creating a learning environment and unfortunately, you know our education system and I had a small taste of it, but unfortunately there is not nearly enough recognition or knowledge about trauma and how it interferes with learning and and what educators could do like and we, you know, obviously, um, there's a lot's a lot of things with education that we could complain about, but one of the things that I just, in that short period of time, I realized we definitely need a lot more investment in trauma informed practices, and I don't know if there is such a thing as trauma-informed education, but it'd be great if there was.

Speaker 2: 8:20

I agree. I mean I think the ACEs research has taught us so much and the awareness of parental trauma, parental mental illness, parental substance use disorders and the cumulative impact on the children and there are short and long-term consequences for these things. So I think teachers see it firsthand and thanks for serving those children. And yeah, I fully agree with your reflection. I mean I worked in an inner-city primary care clinic for I don't know seven, eight years here in Minneapolis and we talk a lot about trauma-informed care in doctor's office. So the same principle makes sense. We do trauma-informed education.

Speaker 1: 8:58

so I really agree with you yeah, um, so let's uh shift, because you mentioned that you and your mother wrote some books together and you recently had one published, right?

Speaker 2: 9:11

we have two actually. Yeah, one that literally just came out out, uh, last week, and that is is the second edition of the book for teenagers and it's called I'm Not Alone A Teen's Guide to Living with a Parent who has a Mental Illness or has Experienced Trauma. And what makes all of our books kind of different is that they are interactive. It's not like this is PTSD, this is depression. I mean, you could Google that right. They're all skills-based strategies, stories from teens or adults with lived experience, reflection questions, activities and things like that. So they're very pictures and emphasis for white space and things for the young person to engage and reflect. And so, again, it's a second edition of one from 2005. Well, it has changed in 20 years and so we really updated a lot and are excited just now to be launching it. So that's the one that just came out. And then the companion guide for adults is actually not going to be fully available until January.

Speaker 2: 10:21

That one is published by Johns Hopkins University Press and it's called Loving Someone with a Mental Illness or History of Trauma Skills, hope and Strength for your Journey.

Speaker 2: 10:33

And again, it's not about you know this is bipolar disorder. It's not about you know this is bipolar disorder. It's really not that, but it's how to communicate, how to solve problems, how to deal with stigma, how to advocate in the health care system, how to balance their needs with yours, how to talk to children, all these sorts of things that are very much the real world challenges that the families I've served for several decades now have taught me, and I have humbly learned and tried to put a lot of that de-identified stories, of course, no one in particular but put that into a book form, because most people are never going to go to therapy. They're never going to go to like, a NAMI National Alliance of Mental Illness, a NAMI support group or a vet center support group. So people who are in rural areas or stigma or all sorts of things, they may never access it. So how can we put some of this in a book form?

Speaker 1: 11:26

So I really want to lean in on that a little bit the subject of the book because my co-researchers and I have been interviewing spouses of military service members with PTSD. So the service members had PTSD and were interviewing the spouses about their experiences, particularly as it relates to moral injury, particularly as it relates to moral injury. And so as we got into these interviews and one of my previous research projects, I interviewed women veterans about their experiences with moral injury, and so it's similar, except we're talking to spouses. Um, it's similar except we're talking to spouses. And in both cases the very first interview was a uh set the stage for many of the others like a really, really traumatic. Um, I had no idea that that kind of thing you know goes on. And I wondered you know, that kind of thing you know goes on? And I wondered you know myself, like would I be able to handle that Right?

Speaker 1: 12:44

So we have these military spouses that are dealing with some very, very extreme cases of PTSD in terms of very high rates of dysregulation emotionally. There's a lot of violence, not necessarily interpersonal, but it was. So there was some cases of physical violence. A lot of the violence, physical violence, was directed at objects and things and so on. There was some physical, intimate partner violence, for sure A lot of cases of you know. You know dissociation, disconnection, high risk behavior, all that kind of stuff, and so you know everything that you know about these kind of cases of PTSD.

Speaker 1: 13:43

But for a lot of the spouses completely lost on what to do, I mean they're basically surviving one day to the next and wondering if they're going to survive the next day. Should they try to survive the next day? How are they going to survive the next day? Because you have the emotional upheaval, you have the, the financial distress children are affected, like the whole whole gamut is for a lot of these cases, like we didn't have any of the 20 interviews. There were none that were like, well, this is kind of tough. No, they were all like really, really tough cases. So I'd love to hear about you know, really you know, hear about what would be helpful for them, what would be some things that that you talk about in your book, maybe that really would speak to to them right now and their needs.

Speaker 2: 14:46

Thanks for sharing about that research. I I love qualitative research because it really opens the door for such rich information and it sounds like it was really poignant and sad to hear some of the immense pain and struggles and confusion and isolation. You know, to be honest, the reason I got into all this in terms of supporting families in the mid-1990s was I was in the VA hospital and looking at the waiting rooms of all these family members who were sitting there and now their veterans went into all these family members who were sitting there and now their veterans went into their appointment, but they were sitting there alone and confused and scared and I thought these people are all here, we need to do something about this, which is why I started creating family education curriculums and groups and programs then to try to provide some support for them. So you know, one first kind of message is we're absolutely not alone, that there are other people trying to understand this and so you know, good for them for reaching out for information, for support, for trying to understand and to connect. You know, be it military, through vet centers, often have many wonderful support groups and things through VAs, through civilian kind of mental health clinics or things like that, but realize that sometimes when you're in the family system and sometimes they can be kind of closed systems so you may not have interaction or contact with others that getting some support from people outside the system can be helpful. You know safety of course is huge from people outside the system can be helpful. You know safety of course is huge. You know you refer to the emotional, maybe physical, violence and things like that.

Speaker 2: 16:24

And so, for the children and for them, finding ways of learning skills we certainly have chapters on what to do when your loved one is angry or out of control, managing strong emotions sort of thing and and similarly, learning skills and limit setting and boundaries and this is a lot easier said than done, but the necessity for themselves, their own well-being, for their children and other people around, of setting some boundaries and limits, which may be I'm going to go and go to the mall and have a coffee with my friends, or I'm going to go and go to the mall and have a coffee with my friends, or I'm going to go and, you know, do X, y and Z to have some time for myself, or it's not okay for you to call me names.

Speaker 2: 17:04

I'm not going to accept that you know, setting these boundaries sorts of things, and having time to nourish my spirit as I'm trying to be present and caring and supportive for you. Because trauma behavior, especially if you don't understand it, can be very confusing and it's very easy for partners to blame themselves and wonder well, are they not interested in me, do they not love me, do they not care about me? And so trying to understand that a lot of it is probably the illness. And the other thing I'll just say is I think in couples therapy which is what I've done largely for 25 years, so often you can think about the overt PTSD symptoms. You know the nightmares, the flashbacks, and those are all, of course, very impactful is perhaps equally, if not more, impactful on relationships is the emotional numbing, the emotional unavailability, which again can be adaptive in combat, or things like that when numb room's supposed to survive, but then you come home and you can't not like a swipping, flipping the switch.

Speaker 2: 18:10

It's not just turn on like that, and so then the partner's children is like they're there but not there that kind of ambiguous, lost concept that they're there but not there, which can be very confusing and as painful and devastating to a relationship as some of the nightmares and things of that that we talk about yeah, no, that's definitely true and that was one of the things it was.

Speaker 1: 18:31

A common theme was just the unavailability, um, and I mean I I would just be regurgitating what you said, but that that was a really strong finding is that availability?

Speaker 1: 18:51

it's so painful yeah, and then of then, of course, one of the major struggles that a lot of the spouses had was, on one hand, they felt that I'm not sure I should stay, I'm not sure this is scary for me, the children, the distress, you know all that right Extremely high, and they felt like, well, this is not my husband's fault, uh, or or wife's, it wasn't just just but. But you know, it's not my spouse's fault. They served their country. They didn't choose this to happen to them. They did an honorable thing and they came back this way. And so what kind of person would I be if I left them? And that's where you get into this moral injury kind of conundrum. You know this both either decision feels bad, you know, because of that, now there was one woman that said, look, you're going to get help or I'm going to leave. That was, that was a kind of, but for most of them it was, you know, just really caught between. I don't know what to do. For that reason, you know it's huge.

Speaker 2: 20:07

It's huge and I agree the mental injuries were as a result of the service of our country, which is laudable and appreciative and very positive. And my opinion, michelle Sherman opinion statement here the worst PTSD does not excuse abuse or behavior. I think that's just Michelle Sherman's opinion, okay that it doesn't make it okay for someone to do that.

Speaker 2: 20:34

And there I mean you and I both know there are effective treatments out there. There are a lot of things that can help people who've experienced trauma and have moral injury. They're not easy, but there are a growing number. Some are quite short, even Some of the more written exposure therapy and things of that nature that can be very effective and not terribly long doses, couple sort of intervention, family interventions. You know a number of ways that we can help people who experience trauma. So being careful not to condone unkind behavior because they have after all, you know, they have PTSD. I don't think that's serving your loved one either. Honestly.

Speaker 1: 21:13

Right. No, I think several mentioned too, like they said I had to learn how to set boundaries. Yes, like I wasn't no longer. And I remember one woman said in the early days I think there was definitely some abuse, not physical, but just the getting triggered and what you often see and a lot of people do this, not even with PTSD we tend to more easily harm the ones that are closest to us.

Speaker 1: 21:45

We tend to be careful with our friends, but when we're really having a bad day or whatever, it's easy to kind of take that out on the people that are closest to you. You're most familiar with your spouse, your kids, whatever. But when you're talking to a PTSD person, that can mean some very high dysregulation and some so. So she said early on now that I look back, it was definitely abuse and I had to learn to set boundaries. You're not going to, I'm not going to do, I'm not going to tolerate this and it's not my fault and I'm not the one that did this and so on. But it's very hard to do, um, because of that you know you're.

Speaker 1: 22:30

When you're in the kind of a relationship like a marriage, you're not, um know you're locked, you're bound much tighter, it's a much more. You know you're much more locked into that relationship emotionally, mentally, financially, for sure than than a friendship or even a deep friendship. You know it's there's so much to it about how will I survive, how will we be along, what kind of? You know there's just so much to it. And setting boundaries can also feel, especially if you have trauma in your own background. Setting boundaries can feel like can feel like disloyalty or a violation or not being, you know, loving or whatever, like all these things. And so I think being able to educate people on that you mentioned, that seems like a very important thing to do with families who are struggling.

Speaker 2: 23:30

You know it's the longest chapter in the book it is. We teach skills, you know, in terms of be it from a timeout, conflict disengagement process to looking at internal process. How can I catch myself when I'm needing to take a break? What can I do? What are some of my cognitions or thoughts? I say to myself that's sort of mistraining. I mean, there's a lot to do that. And thinking about my own values of how do I want to show up in my marriage or my relationship and how can I choose to act in a way consistent with my values. So there's a lot to break down and there are a lot of reasons we don't set barriers or boundaries.

Speaker 2: 24:07

Excuse me right, we're afraid of all the things you talk about, but then we also talk about what are the consequences for not setting boundaries. You live usually in misery and haven't done couples therapy 25 years. I've seen a lot of people who are stable but very unhappy. So not setting boundaries isn't too great either. So it's a huge, huge issue. I want to go back and say one thing, so I don't forget Okay, sure.

Speaker 2: 24:32

We're talking about is the idea of how to talk about trauma and PTSD and make sense. One area that I did some research with in the VA was talking to veteran parents about how do you and, if so, what do you say to your kids. So actually I have a free resource that's on my website. I don't know if you'll be able to share the website, but it's seedsofhopebookscom. But there's a free resource on there that, again, I made during the VA, based on a three-site mixed methods research project we did with veteran parents, and it's all about how to talk to your kids about PTSD, what to say, how to do with your reactions, their reactions, all the stuff. So your listeners may find that helpful. It's called A Veteran's Guide to Talking to their Kids About PTSD and it's all free on my website, seedsofhopebookscom.

Speaker 1: 25:25

This time of year we have the holidays coming up and these can be difficult for anybody, but can be especially difficult for family members struggling with PTSD either the person with the PTSD and the family members too. A lot of social pressure, financial stress, anxiety. You know just expectations for the holidays and like family get togethers, those kind of things. And for you know families where, where there's trauma, ptsd, that sort of thing, moral injury, it can be some additional like it can be even more difficult, and so I'd love to hear about what some ideas you could give the readers about how they can help navigate through this time of year.

Speaker 2: 26:24

Yeah, I so agree with you, dan, that it is such a difficult time. I mean, all the media presents it as people being so happy and joyful and celebratory and all these Disney, you know, hallmark sorts of pictures. But for many people, with especially the darker, shorter days and I live in Minnesota and so oftentimes the colder temperatures it can be actually a time of more pain and difficulty, more sense of remembering losses and dealing with grief, dealing with times of the person who wasn't there ever again this year, or people, maybe that you're missing. It can be a time of worrying what other people are going to think in terms of, well, what are people going to ask you at the holiday dinner in terms of how was your job or this project or that one? Maybe you lost your job or your mental health problems or trauma reactions are making you not able to continue to do things, and so you're worried. Are people going to think badly of you or judge you, and so it can be a time of extra difficulty and stress and loneliness. You see this view on social media of all these people happy and holidays and celebrating, and maybe you're feeling desperately alone and sad.

Speaker 2: 27:37

And so three kind of ideas in terms of helping trauma survivors or moral injury survivors. One is create your own holidays. You know, maybe you do or maybe you don't want to go to the family gathering, but what would be meaningful for you, or for you and those in your immediate circle? But what would be meaningful for you, or for you and those in your immediate circle? Maybe it's a matter of turning on a video and watching something that's enjoyable or funny and having some hot chocolate and a holiday cookie or something, and all the big activities with lots of people, which we know can be triggering for people with trauma. Let that go this year, but make your own holiday for people with trauma. Let that go this year, but make your own holiday. A second idea is, if you do choose to go to an event where it may be stimulating, take two cars you know, such that one of you can leave if it feels right and the other person can continue and stay to enjoy the holiday. So offer yourself some flexibility.

Speaker 2: 28:31

And third, you know, although sometimes we say, well, that's common sense, michelle, we know that common sense isn't always common practice. Things like getting outside, getting fresh air, being cautious about the food and drink that we consume, trying not to isolate, all those things of staying connected to each other, to the earth. To exercise, moving our bodies you don't have to go run a marathon but keeping active, all those things to take good care of our mind, body and spirit are all really important things. And then remember, january comes, we'll get through it. It is not something that lasts forever. We'll get through this holiday season and make it your own.

Speaker 1: 29:14

Yeah, I think, yeah, I appreciate those recommendations. I think one of the difficult things for me or not necessarily for me, but that I could see and I've heard about with families is just the different expectations of each family member. One spouse might really want to be with family and because of the way they grew up, maybe they're used to big family gatherings around holidays. And another spouse maybe their family didn't do that, so that can create some tension there, right?

Speaker 2: 29:58

I couldn't agree with you more Absolutely. And sometimes, having done laughter couples therapy, I see couples struggle to communicate about those things and it's just the assumption Well, we always go to grandma's house or we always do this tradition. Well, maybe can you communicate that this isn't going to work for you this year and can you do something different. How can we give each other grace and offer flexibility when maybe this isn't the right thing?

Speaker 2: 30:22

So it requires some communication and some assertiveness which can be challenging when you don't want to disappoint or have people have not their expectations fulfilled, but it requires some negotiation and sometimes communication and compromise.

Speaker 1: 30:38

Yeah, I think another area that could potentially be a spot is again goes back to how you're brought up. One spouse might be used to lots of gifts, lots of presents, lots of, and another spouse maybe comes from a background where where there was very conservative about that or very frugal, and so is it a similar, is it a similar kind of thing, communication negotiations?

Speaker 2: 31:07

Absolutely, and then creating our own, you know, as part of development of family, right, as you have your family of origin, your story, allow me for a new. And you have yours, and it's like let's have. You have your family of origin, your story, long before I knew you, and you have yours, and it's like let's have this opportunity to create our own, oftentimes pulling from traditions from both sides, and let's figure out what we want and what works for our family, perhaps our offspring or whatever else. So, yeah, it's being intentional about the new family system and who we are honoring, that which is good, drawing from those and then some compromise. Maybe you always did presents Christmas Eve, maybe others always did presents Christmas Day, but we do both. You know what might work for the new family.

Speaker 1: 31:45

Okay, so you mentioned the two books that are coming out, one just released right and then one coming out in January. I think yes. What are you most excited for each of those books for the readers to get Like as you were writing that? What got you most excited about putting that on paper?

Speaker 2: 32:06

Yeah, it's a great question For the first one. For the teenagers, it really is, honestly, and this may sound funny, but it's like wow, there's a book for me, because so often their experience is neglected and no one asks about how are the kids doing? Because everyone in the family system is so focused on the person with the trauma or the loved one or things. It's like, wow, someone's paying attention to me and my experience. Like, wow, someone's paying attention to me and my experience. There are things that I can do to help myself in terms of my own coping tools, my own ways of building my resilience and things. And so we want the teenagers to feel seen, to feel recognized, to feel empowered with skills and tools and ways of coping with their situation and ways of coping with their situation.

Speaker 2: 32:53

So, although it may sound strange to me, it actually to you it may really is very real to me that there's actually we as a society are so believing this is important that we created resources. For you, I'll say Australia, the UK, some other countries are far ahead of the United States of America A lot of organizations and societies and things and funding to do this. We in the United States, overall, are fairly far behind in doing this, and so we hope this will help fill some of the gaps. So that's for teenagers it's like hey, we see you, we recognize your challenge, your sacrifice and we want to support you and there are some ways to help you. So that's that one. For the other one, the Loving Someone, loving someone with mental illness or history of trauma book, what we really hope is that readers experience this not just as another book with pages and pages of education, information it's not just text and all this sort of stuff but rather honestly, we hope it touches people's hearts as well as heads.

Speaker 2: 33:57

Right Because we really intentionally wrote this with a warm, compassionate tone. Now you've already figured out I'm an academic, I like research, I like to cite stuff. I'm not pulling stuff out of my rear. I like to talk about de-identified of course, my clinical experience.

Speaker 2: 34:11

My clinical experience, and so it's not just like warm and fuzzy kumbaya, but it really is intended to help the reader feel seen and to give them research-based skills, be it from cognitive behavioral therapy, be it acceptance and commitment therapy, be it self-compassion principles things that we know can help them, and to empower them with skills for managing some complex situations. As you were describing some of the partners in the research that you did, it's going to be hard, this can be really tough, and so how can we empower them with skills, recognition, with resources, strategies, reading what other people's lived experience? They also feel left alone, less alone. It's kind of like a support group in a book. You know, not everyone's going to go to Al-Anon or to NAMI groups, so really you're hoping that they feel validated, seen and empowered with resources.

Speaker 1: 35:05

Sounds good. So, as we kind of wrap up, I want to thank you, michelle, for being on this podcast. It was really great talking to you and, uh, I'm excited about all the work you're doing. You've done a really uh appreciate, um the service you've given to families, teenagers, um couples. You know your, your work and ministry I like to call it as, uh, as I know has really helped a lot of people, and I know your books will do that also. Is there any anything that you'd like to like to say as we close out this evening?

Speaker 2: 35:46

Thank you, dr Roberts, for this opportunity. It was really. I've been so looking forward to it and I enjoyed connecting with you and our shared passion so much. I'm so happy to know that this podcast is reaching and supporting others and we are just frankly asking for help and letting people know about these resources Because, as you said, clergy things like that it's like I'm a little old person in Minnesota, you know, and we think clergy military so many people could find ways to help other families. This is not about making money. Actually, I make maybe $1 per book. This is not about making money. This is about my whole career. This has all been volunteering, creating these things. I'm not making money on this stuff. This is about trying to get the resources in the hands of the teenagers and adults who could benefit from it. So that would be my ask If you know of, if you have listeners, if you have groups or organizations or social media that you'd be willing to post hey, I learned about these new resources or LinkedIn or whatever Gosh I'd be incredibly grateful.