Moral Injury Support Network Podcast
Join us as we embark on a powerful journey, exploring the often-unspoken challenges faced by servicewomen and the moral injuries they endure in the line of duty.
Moral Injury Support Network for Servicewomen, Inc. (MISNS) is a dedicated non-profit organization on a mission to bring together healthcare practitioners, experts, and advocates to raise awareness about moral injury among servicewomen. Our podcast serves as a platform for servicewomen and those who support them to share their stories, experiences, and insights into the profound impact of moral injury.
In each episode, we'll engage in heartfelt conversations with servicewomen, mental health professionals, military leaders, and individuals who have witnessed the toll of moral injury firsthand. Through their stories, we aim to shed light on the unique struggles faced by servicewomen and the transformative journey towards healing and resilience.
Discover the complexities of moral injury within the military context, exploring the ethical dilemmas, moral conflicts, and the deep emotional wounds that servicewomen may encounter. Gain a deeper understanding of the societal, cultural, and systemic factors that contribute to moral distress within the military community.
Our podcast serves as a safe space for servicewomen to share their experiences, find support, and foster a sense of community. We also aim to equip healthcare practitioners with the knowledge and tools to recognize, address, and support those affected by moral injury. Join us as we explore evidence-based interventions, therapeutic approaches, and self-care practices designed to promote healing and well-being.
MISNS invites you to be a part of a movement that seeks to create a more compassionate and supportive environment for servicewomen. By amplifying their voices and promoting understanding, we strive to foster positive change within the military and healthcare systems.
Whether you are a servicewoman, a healthcare professional, a veteran, or simply passionate about supporting those who have served, this podcast offers valuable insights and perspectives. Together, let's forge a path towards healing, resilience, and empowerment.
Subscribe to Moral Injury Support Network Podcast today and join us in honoring the sacrifices of servicewomen while working towards a future where their well-being and resilience are at the forefront of our collective consciousness.
Moral Injury Support Network Podcast
Navigating Divorce with Dignity and Strength
Vicki Thompson spent over $100,000 on her own divorce, an experience that opened her eyes to the predatory nature of the family law system. Now, as the president and founder of Divorce Right and Farewell, Vicki is on a mission to educate and empower individuals navigating the tumultuous waters of divorce. In this episode, she shares her personal journey and the lessons she's learned, offering insights into minimizing the financial and emotional toll divorce can take on individuals, businesses, and government entities.
For those trapped in toxic relationships, the road to freedom can feel daunting, especially when children are involved. We explore the heart-wrenching choices between staying for the sake of family unity and leaving to safeguard mental and physical well-being. Vicki discusses the potential long-term effects of adverse childhood experiences and stresses the importance of making informed, fearless decisions. Her passion for transforming the divorce experience into a compassionate and supportive process shines, offering hope and practical guidance to those in need.
First responders and military personnel often face unique challenges that can strain marriages and personal lives. Vicki sheds light on the heightened risks of mental health struggles among these groups, sharing personal anecdotes that highlight the emotional toll of their professions. Farewell's affordable mediation services offer a cost-effective alternative to traditional proceedings, designed to preserve financial and emotional stability. Vicki's dedication to supporting military veterans and first responders underscores her commitment to creating a dignified and understanding divorce process for all.
Vicky Townsend is a trailblazing entrepreneur and advocate, dedicated to transforming the divorce process into a kinder, more affordable experience. As the founder of the National Association of Divorce Professionals, Divorce Right, and Fairwell, she has spent over two decades championing solutions that protect families from the financial and emotional toll of divorce. Her recent efforts focus on supporting first responders and military personnel during this challenging life transition. With unwavering commitment, Vicky continues to innovate and lead the charge for a more compassionate divorce industry.
Clients who are referred to Divorce Right services through Moral Injury Support Network for Servicewomen, Inc. receive major discounts and some services are even free. Contact us at droberts@misns.org for more information.
You can reach Vicky directly at:
vicky@divorcerightinc.com.
https://www.divorcerightinc.com/
Www.familyhealthconsortium.com
Www.fairwell.com
Www.divorcerightinc.com
Help Moral Injury Support Network for Servicewomen, Inc. provide the support it needs to women veterans by donating to our cause at: https://misns.org/donation or send a check or money order to Moral Injury Support Network, 136 Sunset Drive, Robbins, NC 27325. Every amount helps and we are so grateful for your loving support. Thanks!
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Hi everybody, this is Daniel Roberts, president and CEO of Moral Injury Support Network for Service Women Incorporated, and I have with me today a guest, vicki Thompson. She is the president and founder of Divorce Right and Farewell, and the emphasis of her organization is on fairness and well-being for those that are going through challenging, difficult maybe family relationship times and making some difficult transitions in that part of their life, and so she has some great information to share with us today, and I'm really looking forward to this conversation. So, vicki, if you could just give us a little bit of your background and what brought you, what motivated you, to start this organization and to start this work, Thank you so much.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much. What brought me to this process and to do what I was doing is that I spent over $100,000 on mine on my divorce, and I'm a pretty smart girl. I'm a pretty smart girl and if I knew then what I know now, I'd be about $95,000 richer. I learned about the process. I learned about the mistakes I made. I learned about how I let emotion and, most importantly, being uneducated and unprepared, steal my money and my future. And so I started. This is actually this is my third company to be a disruptor in this industry. In this industry, I believe that the family law system is labyrinthine, and I believe it is labyrinthine and almost impossible to get out of on your own. And that's by design because there's a lot of money to be made in this process. A hundred grand just to end a relationship to me is just nonsensical. That's just nonsensical to me. So my first business was a business that was a divorce coaching business. I mostly worked with women that were going through the process and I just wanted to help them make better decisions than I did. My whole mission is to say don't be like me. Now that I know, let me help you get through this without being manipulated out of making decisions that just don't work in your best interest. So that was my first company. And then I got a partner and created a company called the National Association of Divorce Professionals, with the concept there and mission there of just educating all of the professionals. There's so many people on a team when you need to go through this process not just family law, but there's financial advisors and tax accountants. There's, you know, there's mental health counselors, child psychologists. There's mental health counselors, child psychologists. There's real estate agents and lenders. It really truly takes a village to help you get through this. So I wanted to put them all together so that they could educate, they could be educated on, you know, the things that they, the decisions that one was making over here, how it was impacting the life of that person over here, and they weren't even connecting the dots. So the mission was to make it a kinder and gentler experience for their clients, also connecting like-minded professionals that really cared about the outcome of their clients instead of how much money they could make, the outcome of their clients instead of how much money they could make. And then from that, because I was doing so much education on that process to bring to our members.
Speaker 2:It became painfully obvious to me how much divorce actually costs our corporations, our government agencies, our economy as a whole. Divorce costs our country over $400 billion a year in lost productivity. Why? It's nuts? Because people miss work for meetings with their attorneys and with judges. They are distracted because they have to answer phone calls at work or answer emails. They have to get financial documents from their banks. They have new schedules with picking up their children, so they have to make those accommodations. They are making errors because they're just not focused at work. So it costs them that way.
Speaker 2:They also are in a. They present themselves as they're physically at work, but they're emotionally they're just checked out. They are worried about everything but their job or performing their job. They're worried about whether they're going to be able to keep their house. They're worried that they're maybe they're not going to be able to keep their kids or their job. So they are worried about everything. So they are completely just disconnected and disengaged at work.
Speaker 2:And then the last thing is that 10% of divorcing employees just slightly under 10% of divorcing employees quit, and that in itself is very, very expensive forcing employees quit and that in itself is very, very expensive. So I wanted to create a company that works with employees whether those are government employees or corporate America employees to help them get through it, not spend their entire life savings on this process, their entire life savings on this process. Get through it with as few battle scars pardon the pun here as possible emotionally and financially so that they can get on and move on with their lives and then also have some resources to be able to do that.
Speaker 2:I think that that is not only a gift to the person that we work with, but it's a gift to this country by way of having a financially stable person go back to work who's gotten through it, has been emotionally stable and can go back to work and begin the most importantly just begin the next chapter of their life with some renewed you know, renewed hope for their future.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, that's really good when you, when you, think about divorce, there's a lot of stigma surrounding it. Right, there's a lot of you know. There's the religious factor, because even people who aren't actively practicing a religion most people grew, I'm sure, is the financial worries about. You know, if I do get divorced, then I have to. You know we have this joint income and that my income is going to be cut in half or even less. I'll have to share income with this person. We have all this property together, so on and so forth. And then there's just the emotional burden of I failed at marriage. You know what's wrong with me. All those sorts of things, Right, but in many cases, right, divorce may be the best answer for someone, right?
Speaker 2:Because of the nature of the relationship they're in you know, daniel, we are not advocates for divorce, we're just advocates for divorce done right and um, you know I work with a lot of chaplains uh, cause, we do a lot of first responder work, for particularly with firefighters and police officers, and the chaplains are the ones that came to me to say, vicki, we, we get that we can't save every marriage, nor should every marriage be saved. It is oftentimes the best step forward is to have them take steps apart from one another, and they understand spiritual counseling, like you do, and they understand the support that somebody may need. But they also know that they didn't understand the process of divorce, and that's really what we're here for is we're here to help them through that process. Even the idea of getting started can just be overwhelming because they don't know what to do. And so there's two very important and very expensive things in the divorce process that costs you money being unprepared and unorganized and being uneducated about knowing what you need to know, and so we take that away. We get them educated about what's going to happen, what the potential choices are.
Speaker 2:We have a get started package to help them organize all of their documents, because when you show up, if you need an attorney, which that's not always the best way. In my opinion, it's right for some cases. Some cases absolutely need an attorney, but there's so many that don't. But the brand of my industry is you better get a shark or you better get a bulldog, or you better get a barracuda, you better get something that's going to eat the other party, right. But I will tell you that the most expensive part of a divorce is hiring a shark, hiring a bulldog or hiring that barracuda, because this conflict and chaos is where the money is, and they also love it. If you're unprepared, if you're just all over the place and unprepared, it's a. The cash register is just ringing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because there's all those billable hours right.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, and you know if you need them to help you do or if they have to just constantly check in with you to where are you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, they attorneys charge in six minute increments, right, yeah, yeah. So they're gonna call you up how you doing that. Just, you know that that call just cost you 75 bucks, right, it's just. To me it's just nonsensical. The whole process and procedure of breaking up a marriage that's not working in this country to me is just, you know, it's nonsensical. And if we understood that, the financial damage I don't know if we chatted about this, but 75% of all welfare applications are as a direct result of a divorce 75%.
Speaker 1:Wow, I can believe that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the WIC programs, section 8, housing, food stamps, after-school support programs, transportation all of those support programs are as a direct result of divorce. But we don't think about us as taxpayers. That that's part of the problem. And the problem is just that this system is just like a meat grinder it puts you through it and you just don't come out the other side the same way. So we want to stop that, if we can, and get them through a process. And you know I, I sit down with them, I go. You know I spent a hundred grand on mine. Do you want to do that? Or do you want to do it for about 5,000? You know what? What? What would be your best choice? What's the choice here?
Speaker 1:Put your pride and let's save you some money and get you some resources so that you guys can go apart from one another. Yeah, that's so. First of all, I want to say I have a great marriage. So I'm not referring to myself, but as I think through, you know, but I have been divorced before. But I have been divorced before. So if I'm a person and having counseled people that are thinking about divorce or struggling in their relationship let's say I'm a person and I just maybe have been struggling in my marital relationship for a while I'm thinking maybe divorce is the answer. I'm not sure. Let's say there's no abuse, it's just not the love is lost or whatever. There's just-.
Speaker 2:Brother-sister relationship.
Speaker 1:Connecting, yeah, and so do I start with you, do I? What is it better to start with? Get some counseling, get some. You know that. Like, when do you come in the process? I could understand if I'm a person that's decided, yes, I'm definitely getting divorced. I can see where you certainly would come in, but is there earlier in the process that you might want to be?
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, what we would recommend? We have partnered with a company, and this is a company that is available on your Military OneSource site. It's an excellent program. It is very inexpensive compared to in-person counseling. This is for marriage enrichment and the possibility of saving your marriage. This is not about making the decision to stay or go. We can help you with that process. But if you want to give it that one last try, there is a program on your, on in your benefits, called Our Relationship. It's an excellent program. I've done it. It is online. It's a four to six week program. It's supported with in-person online counseling sessions so that you can keep the you know, keep the temperature down. You can keep the you know, keep the temperature down. And then, if that doesn't work, yes, we can help you and coach you through making that decision of should I stay or should I go, and those decisions are different for everybody. There's not one, there's not a one size fits all on this, and I will say that.
Speaker 2:You know I talked about that brother sister relationship. I mentioned that that's a very dangerous relationship in marriages where you're just yeah, I'm working with a couple that's going through it now. They've been in the same bed together and have not had intimate relationships with each other for seven years. And you know they go. It's like you know, I'm living with my brother and I get it, you know, and they both want more for themselves and they're not going. There's, I think, there's just been too. Sometimes there's just too much water under the bridge to bring that back. Our relationship can help you re-spark that. The longer you wait, the more water that goes under that bridge, the longer the shot is to repair that relationship. Our statistics are that 50% of couples that go to couples therapy are divorced within three years. And you know, I'm often asked, you know, why is that the statistic? And my belief is that they just waited too late.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's what I think too.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So doing a program like our relationship, I think it's a really good idea. Even if you don't have, you know, big issues in your marriage, it can help you from getting to that point right. It helps you from from needing people like me if this is, if this is salvageable. But doing it early, under, you know, learning to understand each other's needs early. There's so much. There's so many other things, even just books like the five love languages learning the love language of your partner, I think is really important. You know things like that can help you and support you. But you know we are there. If you decide that this you know this is probably not where you want to be, we'll help you, um, with some care and and professionalism, but and most of all, compassion to help you come to your own conclusion. We're not going to put that into your mind. This is about helping you get to where you need to be and help you kind of accept that reality that you're better off.
Speaker 2:Sometimes you're safer. Yeah, absolutely. I mean mentally and physically. You're safer to be out of a toxic relationship and your children, by the way yeah, are healthier to be out of a toxic relationship, whether it's mental abuse or physical abuse. It's, you know, it's not a bad decision to get your children out of that environment.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I hear you and I think it's sort of you know, as I've I'm thinking of one person in particular in mind abusive relationship and but but her concern was, you know, I don't want to take the kids away from their father, right, but father wasn't really there for the kids anyway, but but it's sort of like like it's which is going to do more harm to the kids, not, you know, not being together as a family or um staying together, but but dealing with that trauma and the and the fighting and the, whatever the emotional, even if you're not actively fighting as a couple.
Speaker 2:Just, you know, kids know if there's love there, if there's kindness, if there's well you're towards each other, you know you're mirroring to them what relationships are right right, whatever that is. You're mirroring that to them and I will say um, have you and I ever talked about ace, the ace test, adverse childhood experiences? Um, I think that it's important to understand well, first of all, divorce. I cause an, a score for your children. Divorce does give you one.
Speaker 2:It's not insignificant. But watching abuse, watching a mental abuse, watching physical abuse um, all of that other stuff also gives a scores, and the higher your ACE score is, the higher your risk for divorce, but also your higher your risk for mental health issues, physical health issues, homelessness, incarceration, high risk behaviors there's all sorts of things that come along with bad events in your child's life. So do you give them one with a divorce and then support them through that? Or do you have them get four and five where they witness physical abuse on their mother or, you know, emotional abuse to their father? It's very. You know it's important to make some decisions from a place of compassion, but also you know education and knowledge about what this whole process can do.
Speaker 1:Yeah, there's the other factor too of as a parent years later potentially regretting I should have left him sooner, I should have got out of that sooner, I shouldn't have waited, like I know folks. Of course they wait until the kids are out of school, then they get divorced. But then there's this regret of you know why did I let my kids go through that for all those years, when you know?
Speaker 2:but it's sort of it's so scary because you, unless you're an expert on divorce like you work in the field.
Speaker 1:You all you can think about is how scary it is, how much it might cost, what I might lose, you know, and the fear of that unknown can be much greater than just at least I know what I'm dealing with every day and you try to tell yourself well, I can do this, or I'll just ignore them, or I'll just because the idea of you know crossing that unknown is so scary.
Speaker 2:The whole concept is overwhelming. You don't even know how to get started. You don't know who to call, you don't know what you need, and yet we just sit there and go oh yeah, she's getting a divorce. You know it's like what? No, there's, and we've created this system that's nearly impossible to get yourself out of. But one thing I wanted to share with you is one of my very closest friends had a very traumatic childhood and she's had her share of challenges as an adult and her mother is now in a facility at the end of her life and she's in her, I think in her late eighties now, and just this last Thanksgiving she said to her I'm so sorry I stayed and put you through that. Hmm, 80. I think she's 86. Maybe, I think, 40, 50 years later maybe I think 40, 50 years later.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Finally got the apology that she needed, Um and but yeah, don't be on your deathbed having to apologize to your child about putting them through hell because you were afraid.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's a great point. So how do you help people take down the fear? How do you, you know?
Speaker 2:know. I will tell you that, first of all, just when we talk to somebody, we have our first meeting with somebody. You can and we'll do it on on meetings like this, on zoom, and you'll physically see them. They're crunched up, they're there, they're even. The muscles in their face are just tense. They'll have knots on their face and they come in and they're scared, they're confused, they're overwhelmed. I use that word a lot and you know it's like drinking water out of a fire hose and they just are like deer in the headlights because they just don't know. So they're like this. By the end of the meeting they they go oh, okay, I can create a plan.
Speaker 2:So we, what we do is we, we have a consultation, um, and we have a very extensive intake form. So we want to learn about um, your, your members, background. We want to learn whether there are special needs children involved, whether they speak different languages, whether this is a religious divorce, whether there are other issues like LGBTQ or domestic violence, or if this is a blended family. We have a very extensive intake form and from that we match them with a coach that can help them understand how to move forward and, speaking to them in the way that you know, with compassion and care, but also connection, because that's what they work on. Like I don't speak Japanese, but we have somebody that does. I don't speak Farsi, but we have somebody that does. I don't speak Farsi, but we have somebody that does. I don't understand the Middle Eastern culture, but we have a lot of people that do. So we can connect them with the right person that can then become their advocate when they have no voice sometimes for themselves. And then what we do is we give them access. We have a program. It's about 10 hours of video time, but it's also a lot of emotional healing too.
Speaker 2:We do take them from the do you want to stay or do you want to go? We teach them about the language of the professionals. They're going to need the language of the court system. That in itself is very intimidating. It's you know Latin pro se and you know quid pro quo I mean all these crazy Latin terms that how are you supposed to know what that stuff means? So we teach them about the language of the courts. We teach them how, like I said, we teach them what kind of financial documents they need to start to organize, financial documents they need to start to organize. We give them file folders for everything so that everything is in order. We give them just the education of what, the process and the decisions, just understanding just what you're going to need to make some decisions about, just having a plan that they've created for themselves.
Speaker 2:Because there are five ways to divorce in this country and we know about one of them and that's your better lawyer up, right, you know you got a lawyer. Well, you don't. If I told you you didn't really have to do that you should always get an attorney to look over the documents. But there are other ways you can do this with, you know. But there are other ways you can do this with, you know, a mediator, which is what we do and, by the way, your, your, your members, and they get a 25 percent discount on mediation services If mediation services are a good fit. It's not always. If there's been domestic violence, it's not a choice.
Speaker 2:But what we will do is we will help them research and interview attorneys that will work for them, that that are a good fit. So we help them build that team. But they start to learn that there are other ways to do this that don't that don't have to cost them their life savings. So we just show them that process. We can do financial analysis for them to show them what their life is going to be like in the future financially, because that's a big fear. And then we give them some hope for the future.
Speaker 2:So they go through this program. It's supported with some in-person Zoom meetings where we kind of catch up with them, find out where they are, give them some guidance and direction to next steps and then at some point they're going to be able to fly on their own. If they can't, we can always be there to support them. I mean, we've actually gone into a courtroom and sat behind our clients and come out during a break and go. That was great. But this is what's happening and this is where we need to pivot a little bit so we can help them set up their next phase of their life, from finding them a financial advisor and an accountant to finding them a realtor or a mortgage lender, getting them therapy for themselves or for their children. We're there to help them through this process from start to as long as they want us there and that's just. You know, some people just need us for a minute, some people need us for a few years and we're everything in between. That's awesome.
Speaker 1:How do you go about vetting or the lawyers and other folks that you're going to refer people to or that you're going to connect them to if they need it? What are the requirements to be associated with?
Speaker 2:With us. Well, so one of the things that I had was a Rolodex that I came into this company with of people that I know, like and trust, and one of the things that they had to do when they joined my former company was they had to sign an agreement that said that they were going to be putting their clients' needs ahead of their own, and so that's why it worked as well as it did, because those were the people that weren't there for the creating the conflict and chaos. They were there to kindly help them go, and that's that there are good attorneys. I don't want you to think that I don't like attorneys, because I do know that they're needed, but there are some that pay for their vacation home on the backs of their clients. There are some that you know their their car just broke down and so they need to wink, wink, nod, nod and ask the judge for some continuances or some things that they need. Or I and I've actually seen attorneys that I know know that I had referred sometimes, you know, do some stuff to to get billable hours, and I called them on it and I said, oh no, that's not going to happen. Um, so you know, I think that ultimately, um, we want to. So so I know, and I don't know if, if in the military, they have opportunities to buy legal insurance plans, or if they have discounted legal plans through their EAP at at um, uh, through, through their, through their work, but whatever their options are, we actually will take them through.
Speaker 2:We will show them, let's say, that it's MetLife Legal or Arag or US Insurance or one of the other insurance companies. They will give you a list of attorneys that you can use. We will go through all of the rating sites. We'll go through AVOcom, we'll go through Martindale Hubble, which is a site where other lawyers rate other lawyers. We'll go through Google reviews, we'll go through Yelp. Even we will dig deep and see what the client experience has been with this attorney. We give them a whole list of questions about 50 questions that they can ask their attorney just to make sure their attorney aligns with their values or aligns with the experience that they need for their case.
Speaker 2:And I'll give you an example we're working with a firefighter in Colorado and he's in a common law marriage there and they had a child. And when they had their child they decided to leave Colorado to move to another state to have his parents support with raising the children while they worked and after the child was ready for preschool, they decided they were going to move back to Colorado and he came back, got his old job back and so he came back early and when she was supposed to move out she ended up moving to another state where her parents are, took the kid and now he's got a battle. So we're supporting him by we helped him with, you know, reviewing. He had an insurance company, so we went through, we taught him how. You know he needed somebody that was an expert in child custody litigation and this is cross state lines. So we had to find him lawyers in Colorado, lawyers in the other state that she's in.
Speaker 2:There was going to be a restraining order because she was with somebody that's had a multitude of DUIs, had a suspended driver's license and was driving their child to and from daycare. So we had to find a criminal lawyer for restraining orders. So you know, we kind of get down in the muck and mire and help them make the best decisions with the resources that they have. So it may not be somebody that I know personally from from his community which I do, honestly, I know a lot, but that doesn't mean that that's what his insurance company is going to say here use these people, right. This is where you are Right. So we had to. We have to do what we have to do and make the best of that. But he was able to interview, find somebody. You know through all of the reviews, when the words custody kept coming up, we knew that that included experience, and if it was positive custody experience, we knew that that was somebody that he wanted to interview. And so that's what we did.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think it's really key. I mean that just knowing you have you're not alone in trying to navigate through all this just somebody who can help you. A lot of times, you know, when we're helping people that reach out to us some of the things they could do for themselves probably, but when you're really struggling emotionally and you're feeling down and you're feeling overwhelmed, you can't do it yourself. And just having somebody that is there for you, that you can reach out to, that you can say can you help me? Can you help? Just some advice, just somebody knowing that, hey, I'm here for you, I'm on this journey with you and I'm here to see that you get what you need is a huge, huge help for people.
Speaker 2:You don't know how, when I, when I talk about that overwhelm, that overwhelm, they, they, you can see they're just shut down because there's just so much that you don't know and there's so much you're, you know, you become afraid, you're, you're afraid of what you don't know, and and it can paralyze you into making zero decisions. And when you don't know, you know, this isn't like making a sandwich. Right, this isn't something that you do every day. As a matter of fact, hopefully, you only do this once a year. I mean once a year, once in your lifetime.
Speaker 1:Once a year. That'd be tough right.
Speaker 2:But once in your lifetime. And you know there's no shame in not understanding the process. Why would you know it, right? But with that said, it has become this crazy, complicated, overwhelming system designed by the very people you have to pay a lot of money to get you out of. They designed it so that you can't figure it out on your own Right. They just did Listen. This is a huge, huge business. It's a $50 billion a year industry. More money goes to the family court systems than in any other court system.
Speaker 2:And you know there are some other things about family the family loss, you know process and getting involved in that kind of thing. The longer you're in it, the higher your risk of women breast and advanced stage uterine cancer, men, acute myocardial infarctions, lung bladder, pancreatic, colorectal cancer the higher your risk for bankruptcy. Like I said, you know it's the number one reason for food stamps and and and what's a, you know government assistance programs, right, it is also, you know, mental health. You're. You're. You increase your risk of not only depression and anxiety, but you also increase your risk of suicide, you know. So this is not getting you in and out of the process in a kinder, gentler way. That's faster and it's never going to be good. I don't ever want anybody there and go. This is going to be wonderful. No, it's not. It's gonna. It's gonna suck on its best day, but it'll be better than being in that system.
Speaker 1:Do you know what I'm saying when I say yeah, absolutely I mean I don't love getting medical care, but you have to have it, you know. So if you, if you have to go in for surgery, it's not going to be like, hey, I get to have surgery, but it saves your life. It saves your life, you know so yeah, exactly, yeah I appreciate your honesty with that and you've done a lot of work with first responders and military and so on, and so what are some of the unique challenges of that population group that really motivates you to help them?
Speaker 2:Well, I, as a taxpaying citizen, was arrogant enough to not really understand what the sacrifices of our first responders give to us. I mean, you can see it now, with the fires out in California.
Speaker 2:I mean those people are saving lives and heroes at their own expense. They have four key risk factors for divorce that are baked into their jobs the jobs that they do for you, the jobs that they do for me, the jobs that they do for me and everybody else that's that lives here in the United States. They have the four key risk factors, particularly in firefighters and military are high exposure to stress. I mean, think about it If you're at a, at a um, at a fire station, and that bell goes off, boom, your adrenaline goes, your cortisol levels go up and that has in its own. It's like a pinball machine with damage to right, all of your, all of your, your, your organs and your tissues. They have high exposure to trauma and I will tell you, I was so humbled by the very I used to go after.
Speaker 2:I used to think that I wanted the Googles and the Disneys and the you know, walmarts and things like that, which I do. But I sat down with my first firefighter. We were at a coffee shop in Fort Lauderdale. It's a flower shop and it's a coffee shop and it's lovely and it has little vignettes inside and people were sitting all over the place and we were there and we had met for coffee and I had a blueberry muffin and he sat down across the table from me and he was kind of like, just like this, remember, when I was talking about that he was there. But he wasn't there. And I always feel guilty when I ask somebody this because I know the answer is never good. But I just said to him I said are you okay? Yeah, and he goes yeah, I just picked up a head off of I-95 from a traffic accident. Now I had just taken a bite of that blueberry muffin and I went and it hits the back of my throat.
Speaker 1:And.
Speaker 2:I start choking and I start crying. I'm an ugly crier, so stuff is coming down and my throat is like closing up. Have you ever had that where you're going?
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:He's not moving. Everybody else in this coffee shop coming over I had people like hitting me on the back. Somebody's raising my arms above my head, somebody's trying to get me water, somebody's rubbing my back to make sure that I like trying to get. He's not even kind of consciously aware and he's the first responder right, he's the guy right. And then the next day I went and I met another one and he had just pulled a three-year-old out of the bottom of a hot tub. And both of these guys I sat there and went. How do they go home and be daddy? How do they go home and go honey? Let's go have date night.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Right, and so that changed the trajectory of my business and why I'm so passionate about that. So I, so that's trauma. The third thing and this is everybody else too is shift, work, shift. If you work, shift, work, that actually increases your risk of divorce. And then the fourth thing that they have that's unique to firefighters into the military more so than any of the other ones, is that they live in a frat house. Right, they live in a frat house where nothing good happens for a marriage in those frat houses you know it just, is it just?
Speaker 2:doesn't, it just doesn't. A lot of boy stuff, six-year-old boy stuff, absolutely them to go do those things that I just told you that we asked them to do. And our military, I I've, I have, yeah, I have not yet worked with somebody that's actually been in a combat situation. I've worked with airmen, um, at air force bases, but I have not done, I have not worked, so I can't imagine what they see. But I promise you one thing it adds additional stresses to marriages that somebody that works for IBM, you know, doesn't experience.
Speaker 1:Right. And when you think about women, veterans having all those things plus, even the people that they're supposed to rely on, count on, often are also the ones that are adding additional stress if you're in a male dominated environment, so you have that harassment, gender harassment, sexual harassment, et cetera, et cetera, those kinds of stresses. And just being, you know, a token level person in a, in a group, that's all male except for one or two people. You being the one or two people, that's not male, you know. So those are some additional stressors. And then you mentioned in combat.
Speaker 1:I have lots of friends that have been to combat and, and one of the difficulties I'm thinking of, one person in particular spent almost his entire career in elite, the, the elitest of special forces, the elite of the elite, personally responsible for the deaths of many, many people, and either through direct combat, one-on-one, man-to-man combat, or calling in artillery, all kinds of ways that he was involved in killing people doing his job, kinds of ways that he was involved in killing people doing his job. And the longer he went on, the less connection he had to his family. And in these recent deployments, especially where he had access to sat phone and secure phone, he said I could literally talk to my wife every day if I wanted to because that's the level of communication they had. But he said I would go for weeks without talking to her, because trying to make that transition of I'm eating a sandwich while I'm watching people get blown up on a video screen and then trying to talk to my wife and our four-year-old kid and all that, it's just mentally, emotionally, you can't do it.
Speaker 1:So like there are these huge barriers of between you, like you, you get this dead inside, you become like dead inside, numb inside, and when you're in a marriage you don't want to be married to a person who's numb inside, who's not emotionally, can't emotionally connect to you, and it's not their fault because of the nature of their business. But then you don't just come back from a deployment like that and just switch on to hey, now I'm, now I, now I'm loving husband, caring father. You try, but it's just. Humans aren't built for that kind of, we're not droids or whatever. So so so those additional you know, which are very similar, the kind of challenges you're talking about, with EMT people and and fire firemen and law enforcement, who who are involved in these kind of like you know.
Speaker 2:Every day every day.
Speaker 2:There's a statistic that one of the chaplains shared with me that he said, vicki, he goes, you, as a civilian, will have between three and five traumatic events in your lifetime. And this was a firefighter chaplain. He goes, these guys have that in a 24 hour shift, right. And I went so with that said, it's of those. Those two gentlemen changed my life. They changed how I advocate for first responders.
Speaker 2:Now, I was one of those um taxpayers that just didn't get it. You know, they're the guys that show up when I have a traffic accident, right. They came when my mother fell at our, you know, at her home, and I called 911. That was where the guys came and got her. I never thought about what they see and what they deal with until now. And so I know now, um, and eventually I want to get in front of Congress and go hey, we are causing for their protection, our protection, we are causing issues within their, with their relationships. Let's support them, let's help them go through this process in a kinder and gentler way that they don't end up spending everything that they fought for Pardon for their, for their livelihood and their lives, you know. So that's, that's, that's my why, I guess.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, and as I think about this too, I think you're doing a favor to the spouse too by by providing this service, because you're you're helping not drag them through, you know, as I mean they could, they could potentially not benefit from, but, but but I see like the easier you make this, the more that you make it a positive experience, the right word, but for both parties, because the other spouse, they deserve to not be destroyed in the process too. So you're actually helping both parties, it seems like to me, um, by by helping it not be acrimonious and be very expensive and be a time that that you I mean I, I was it.
Speaker 2:Oh, a call that was just on just before you. It was with some realtors that specialize in divorce. They finally closed on a house where the divorce took. Are you ready for this? Ten years, Ten years. They finally closed on. The divorce was final in December and they closed and they sold her house last Friday.
Speaker 1:Yeah, ten years.
Speaker 2:And that's ten years of you know, there's a book called the Body Keeps Score. I don't know if you've ever, yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2:That's what I mean when I'm talking about you. You keep, you keep yourself in that soup. That's what happens. Get yourself out, as painful as that can be for you. Or maybe you know, if you're one of those people that seeks revenge and you just get some sort of of joy out of hurting the other person, well, you're still hurting yourself too, and you know you're. You're living in that negative energy and it's going to impact your physical health and your mental health. It's the same as it's it's impacting the other person. So you know think about that for for a minute that that that doing that damage to the other spouse for the sake of revenge or, or you know, anger, whatever is only hurting yourself.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I. I have a friend. I was just talking to him yesterday and he thought he got divorced like three years ago and apparently he didn't. Um, he, he said I went to the lawyer, I signed all kinds of paperwork, uh, but I guess she never filed it or whatever. And he said I, I thought I was divorced, I didn't know it wasn't. And he said I filed my taxes as a single person. Is that going to bite me? And I was like, hmm, but, but yeah, that's right.
Speaker 1:But it just goes to show you that people don't know Like he thought you know, and and he said cause he found this out because she recently reached out to him they haven't talked in a you know, I don't know when was the last time they talked, right, they don't talk and so she, she met up with him and they had coffee or whatever. I'm not sure what the purpose was or don't remember. I don't remember that part of the story right, but she had asked him do you forgive me?
Speaker 1:he said I, I forgave you a long time ago. If not for you, for me, uh. Because I don't want to hold on to that, because I know the damage it can do right um, but, but it just goes to show like if you buy a car, you know you bought it or not, right, you eat a meal, you know, but he, he was, you know not knowing what he needed to know right, he didn't know.
Speaker 1:he said I paid a lot of money, I I signed a lot of papers Like how is it that I'm not divorced? You know?
Speaker 2:That was irresponsible of his attorney if he had one.
Speaker 1:So I don't think he did. I don't see him as the kind of person. But so a couple of questions here. I think probably people are listening, thinking okay, what does it cost me to use this service and what would it cost me to do this program?
Speaker 2:Right options for you, which is, um, we can have uh, uh, our, our course itself. That is that education component which we are gifting to any of your, um, your people that go through this process. This is our gift to um, uh, to your, to your women. If they need coaching and consulting on that, we'll work out something with you. Our normal fee is $300 an hour but we will discount that substantially for your women.
Speaker 2:Our mediation services. That depends upon a lot of things the complexity of the case, a lot of things. The complexity of the case there's a lot of pensions here, depending upon their pensions, their 401ks. There are things called quadros, which are qualified domestic relations orders. That can you know, depending upon how many, those can be $500, $600 a piece, five, $600 a piece. Um. Our average mediation, um roughly, with um parenting plans, with financial analysis, with a mediation um roughly a couple of months of time and um between3,500 and $5,000 on average, plus the cost of those quadros, depending upon how many those are. And if there's a lot of other things that aren't calculated in, like if somebody's not cooperating, somebody doesn it's, it's a lot longer process than just eight hours worth of mediation. It can, it can cost more. But we're, you know, instead of a. You know the average divorce in the United States is about $25,000. So we're somewhere, you know, 2,500 on the low end to, at the most, $8,500. And we do discount our mediation services to your members as well, by 25%.
Speaker 1:Okay, so that's huge. I think that was what I was looking for. So potentially $25,000 or more in the litigated space or this way, a couple thousand, two to five, whatever, depending on what is needed and you're offering some free services to our members to get started and do some learning.
Speaker 1:So I think that's great and I think you know it's good for people to know that. What I would say is, if anybody who reaches out, who's interested and comes through Moral Injury Support Network and then we can refer them to you, then you know that they're coming from us and they're authorized those discounts and stuff, so I'm happy to share with that. They can reach out to you directly too, of course. And what is the best way to reach out to you, to get in touch with your services and your folks?
Speaker 2:Well, I've got two different emails and I'll give you the easiest one, to use it, which is Vicki, and I'm Vicki, with a Y at farewellcom, and that's F-A-I-R. Well, emphasis on the word fair, because that's what we look to provide here, is a fair outcome, you know. Is it going to be perfect? No, you know, there's a phenomenon in my industry which is if you ask most people, do you remember what's the name? What was the name of your divorce attorney? That's no idea attorney?
Speaker 1:That's no idea, right Nobody.
Speaker 2:And it literally, it's like a phenomenon If you ask, if you just stop, anybody ask them, they won't know. Yeah, of course People won't remember mine either. It just is just a part that comes along with that. But, um, and you and I had never talked about that before, but I knew that you wouldn't know.
Speaker 1:Nobody does.
Speaker 2:Nobody does. I was in the industry and I couldn't remember mine and I used to pass his building with his pylon sign with his name on it, three times a week, three times going, three times coming. I saw his building three times, three times, you know, twice each way and I still didn't remember his name until I had to look up a document about six months ago and I had to, I go. I think his name was terry and I literally looked up my law, terry, fort lauderdale, and I found it.
Speaker 1:That's how I found it yeah, I mean, I don't remember the guy who took out my wisdom teeth either, because it's not something you know like you don't hopefully don't need them very many times but divorce is trauma.
Speaker 2:And it's it's so for now. I'm Vicki Townsend. I am with farewell and and I'm looking forward to helping you get through this in as kind and as gentle a way as possible, so that you can have some resources left and build a life for the next chapter.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and we're going to put all your information in the show notes so that people can just see it and click on it, and so on. Do you have a website that you want to promote? We have farewellcom. And then again that's.
Speaker 2:F-A-I-R farewellcom we also have for, if there's somebody here from the military that's in leadership. We have now just actually March as March 1st 2026, we will have the security features that is necessary for us to have federal contracts, so, um, we can provide our services on military bases. Um, if you are in mental health, um, for for in the military, please, we would love nothing more than to bring this um to your base and to get your people through this process, because the only ones that have higher divorce rates than firefighters are our military.
Speaker 2:So let's get them the support they need so that they can get through this without destroying themselves financially or emotionally.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think that's huge and we're happy to help you in any way you can help by helping our population. It's just, it's really important what you're doing and I'm in a sucky business I am.
Speaker 2:It does not have a bad reputation for no reason I just I just want to change it. I want to make, I want you, I want my legacy to be that I helped people move into another chapter in their life, and they did it with some grace and some dignity.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it sounds perfect.
Speaker 1:Well, that's a great ending to our show, I think. But again, if you, if you have any questions at all, if you're thinking about the divorce or you're in the process of going through it, I would definitely highly encourage you to reach out to Vicki and you can hear in her compassion and her voice, her passion and her voice, that she really, really cares about us military veterans, first responders and she really wants to help us and, you know, be a lawyer and a friend, a co-journeer, somebody who can help you on this journey, not just take your money and have you, as a client, move on, but somebody who really is interesting and helping you start a new chapter in life that can hopefully, you know you can move past whatever difficulties you're experiencing without judgment, without you know all the other kind of baggage that goes along with it, or at least minimizing that um, and to help you get a fresh start. So, vicki, I thank you so much for being on this and, uh, I hope you have a a great rest of your week and um and thanks.
Speaker 2:Bye everybody.
